What It's Like to Work at...Thoughtworks: A Conversation with Martin Fowler

What It's Like to Work at...Thoughtworks: A Conversation with Martin Fowler

準備來翻譯這篇  馬丁花的訪談 102/8/20



馬丁福絡 分享 他對 Thoughtworks (他任職的公司) 的見解，一個聚焦於可持續發展的、經濟、社會正義(需要看後文對照，這三個項目這樣翻不是很順口)的公司。馬丁敘述了他是怎麼開始的，為何喜愛公司的文化，以及對新進軟體開發者的忠告。

Martin Fowler shares his insights about Thoughtworks, a software development company with a focus on sustainability and economic and social justice. Martin talks about how he got started, why he loves the company's culture, and advice for new software developers.



InformIT: 談談你在 ThoughtWorks 就職時的狀況。
馬丁： 他們(這時是客戶的意思)要我去訪談、諮詢那些正在營運的專案，以取得領域模型(領域建模)。我們進行的很好，而且我也駕輕就熟了。再這個時候，他們做了一個大轉向，將軟體開發的風格以極致邊程作為推進的目標。九個月過後，他們給我一個職位。雖然我很喜歡這個客戶，我決定加入他們。

InformIT: How did you get your job at ThoughtWorks?

Martin Fowler: They called me in to do some consulting around domain modeling for a project they were working on. We got on well and I ended up coming in regularly. During this time they made a big move towards a more Extreme Programming style of software development. After nine months or so they offerred me a job. Since they were my favorite client, I decided to join them.




InformIT:  你在那邊任職多久了？
馬丁：  12年。

InformIT:  ThoughtWorks 跟其他公司比起來哪裡不一樣？
馬丁： 最主要的都是因為人啊。他們所聘用的人員們，不但聰明、也都樂於一起工作。事實上他們也很注重個人的節氣(操守、品行)，而且我發現我更相信我的同事，比起過去多年大部分的客戶而言。而且這裡也是相當熱衷再高質量工作，且仍企圖更精進，對我這個作家而言是個超棒的題材(飼料)。

InformIT: How long have you worked there?

Martin Fowler: Twelve years.

InformIT: What makes ThoughtWorks different from other companies?


Martin Fowler: Primarily it boils down to the people. They do a good job of hiring people who are both very smart, but also pleasant to work with. In particular there's a lot of focus on people with integrity, and I've found I can trust my colleagues here much more than with most of the clients I worked with over the years. There's also a real passion in doing good quality work and wanting to get better, which is excellent fodder for a writer like me.



InformIT: 再工作的時候你最愛的是哪件事？
馬丁： ThoughtWorks 可寫得點子跟消防水柱一樣泉湧。困難的反而是篩選夠小的範圍來進行闡述。

InformIT:  什麼是你在 ThoughtWorks 工作引以為傲的部份？
馬丁：我很榮幸，我們從不到百人的美國公司發展到千人的跨國企業，即使還未很完整的維護文化精隨。我不是很確定我該扮演什麼角色，但我很高興這而有我喜歡的事情去作，還有持續的介紹我跟有趣的的人合作。
　　這麼說吧，我不確定能取得這麼多信用。對於我那些方向更明確的工作上，我必須說我很高興十年前架設了 Martinfowler.com 。網站聚集相當豐富的資源，也一直在挖掘下一步該如何進步的謎題。
　　再這個更具共通性的前提下(試著翻)，我很喜歡看到我的同事變成這個行業的大嘴巴。我不覺得我作太多的保證 －　就我的努力來說我提供的協助算是容易衡量的，但這也是我所能保證的部份。
(  ps: Credit 再這邊的用法，像我們口語上用的 我能不能保證 )


InformIT: What’s your favorite thing about working there?

Martin Fowler: ThoughtWorks is a firehose of ideas for things to write about. The only difficulty is choosing which small sliver of that firehose I get to describe.

InformIT: What have you worked on at ThoughtWorks that you are most proud of?

Martin Fowler: I'm proud of the fact that we've grown from a few hundred people in the U.S. to a couple of thousand people world-wide, yet managed to keep the essence of the culture intact. I'm not sure what role I've played in that, but I'm glad of the fact that it remains somewhere I like to work, and keeps introducing me to interesting people to collaborate with.

That said, I'm not sure that I can take very much credit for that. For things with a more deterministic tie to my own work I'd say I'm happy with building martinfowler.com up over the last decade. It's become quite a rich resource and a constant puzzle as to what to do next to improve it.


On a more collaborative front though, I've been really happy to see several of my colleagues become significant "loud-mouths" in the industry. I don't feel I can take too much credit—any help I've given is easily out-weighed by their own efforts —but it's the credit I'd most like to take.

InformIT: 是什麼原因讓人想在 ThoughtWorks工作呢？
馬丁： ㄘ


InformIT: Why would someone want to work at ThoughtWorks?

Martin Fowler: For less experienced people, I think the big attraction is the ability to learn how to do software development well in a variety of different kinds of projects. Certainly ThoughtWorks projects are not perfect, but I do think they are significantly better than most software projects. I've heard many ex-ThoughtWorkers talk about how they learned a great deal about software development from their years here.

For more experienced people it's more nuanced, if only because a competent senior developer has so many options these days. My sense is that ThoughtWorks appeals most to people who want to lead teams that both deliver challenging projects and also teach smart but inexperienced people how to excel themselves. Delivering software is the common thread here, but as you grow in your career there is a natural shift as the importance of mentoring grows.

And in all cases, the opportunity to travel is significant. If you want to spend a significant chunk of time working in a very different part of the world, such as an American working in India, or a Brazilian working in China, then ThoughtWorks offers a lot of opportunities. This also ties in with our increasing attention to social justice issues, which I know is a big factor for many of our more experienced people.

InformIT: What advice would you have for a new employee just starting at ThoughtWorks?

Martin Fowler: One of the most frustrating things for people at ThoughtWorks is that there's no set career plans, and as such it's dangerously easy to just slide from project to project. For some people that's okay, but if you want to set a direction you have to do it yourself. This means lots of networking, seeking out opportunities, and pushing to take things on. It's not a straightforward path, but it's the flip side of not being channeled into the kind of set career plans that were pushed on me before I became an independent consultant.

InformIT: Tell us an “It could only happen at ThoughtWorks” story.

Martin Fowler: I remember being dragged into a discussion about a prospective project with BigCo. The deal was pretty big, around 50+ staff-years of work for the initial phase. But there were concerns about BigCo's ethical track record, particularly in the developing world. Elements of pure ThoughtWorks in this was listening to the CFO argue passionately against taking on a big chunk of high-margin work, and all these senior leaders listening to a recently hired junior developer from a global south office explaining how BigCo's practices harmed his country.


Martin Fowler is the author of Domain-Specific Languages and NoSQL Distilled: A Brief Guide to the Emerging World of Polyglot Persistence, among many other books and writings.